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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Kompatriot » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:16 pm

My point behind the "chimp comment" was that there are more evolutionarily primitive "humans" alive today (I understand that a biologist would cringe at that statement, but the generalization works for my purposes), and there's nothing weird about it.

I would also like to point out that I never necessarily supported the idea of there being both primitive dogs and sentient "evolved" dogs; merely that there was no reason to eliminate that possibility.

As for Cats ruling over dogs, understand that cats (in the real world) are more intelligent than dogs. Intelligence > everything else in most circumstances, although it is also important to note that cats have never been described by Wolfire as necessarily ruling society with dogs and other races filling into lower class roles.

I imagine the races as essentially being more along the lines of different ethnicities rather than different species (which is partly why a mythological explanation for the OG universe might make more sense than a naturalistic one), with culture being the primary differentiating factor. Rabbits are not very intelligent animals, so if the protagonist were physiologically reflective of rabbits, he would be exceptionally stupid. Hence, it seems clear that all OG races are approximately as intelligent as each other, but are at separate levels of cultural enlightenment. This models real world ethnic/cultural differences perfectly; many native cultures were far more primitive than the white Europeans who displaced, annihilated, or assimilated them, but this was certainly due to a more advanced European culture, not Europeans being naturally more intelligent.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby tokage » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:04 am

Kompatriot wrote: [...] although it is also important to note that cats have never been described by Wolfire as necessarily ruling society with dogs and other races filling into lower class roles.


Sorry, but I would think different. Might I bring your attention to this concept art and the accompanying explanation. The assumption that cats are more of a ruling class is well founded by this.

As for the matter of rat leaders, there is the concept of a 'rat king', not really a rat leader, but a curious fact about rats. 'rat kings' are several rats grown together at their tails and/or back feet. Talk about overgrowth.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Kompatriot » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:04 pm

That's actually a very good point. Note, that while my language was somewhat ambiguous, what I meant by "necessarily ruling society" was that Wolfire has never explicitly stated that cats always have to rule over a society of lesser creatures.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:31 pm

Kompatriot wrote:That's actually a very good point. Note, that while my language was somewhat ambiguous, what I meant by "necessarily ruling society" was that Wolfire has never explicitly stated that cats always have to rule over a society of lesser creatures.


It's true, while all cats are "rulers" in personality, they are not necessarily rulers in real life (Inside the game of course), a common scene might be a "stray look"cat in a dark alley in the suburbs surrounded by like 3 dogs getting his ass kicked with the dogs laughing while the cats still insults them and tries to fight back until he's unconscious. (If my character were to see this, I'd help the poor little guy, it would be cool to choose to help someone or choose sides in this sort of encounter)

_________________________________________________________________________________

The rat king gave me an idea (Or probably reminded me of an idea which I saw somewhere else ;p), under the great city in the sewers lies an even more powerful legion than what is above, a massive community of rats said to only be legend and rumor, commanded by the rat king, you must see if the rumors are true and meet the rat king yourself.

I can imagine lots of rat pawns serving a cruel rat king (A "GIANT" fat rat bigger than a wolf, intertwined with 4 other corpses), rumor goes he sucked the life out of them so he could grow bigger, some sort of monster).

The king could either plan some sort of invasion due to an earlier generation of cats forcing them to lie under the sewers to survive (Some traumatic experience for the king).

Now that's the kind of quests / missions I wanna follow, hearing rumors and then finding out more through NPCs (Bribing, threatening or even trying to butter them up), instead of having ALL of them being direct kill this, go here, kill this guy.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby tokage » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:37 pm

Kompatriot wrote:That's actually a very good point. Note, that while my language was somewhat ambiguous, what I meant by "necessarily ruling society" was that Wolfire has never explicitly stated that cats always have to rule over a society of lesser creatures.


Yeah, you are right about that. Judging from the comic and the blog posts about the dog graveyard, as well as the subcultures mentioned in the designing cultures post(at the bottom), there are dog societies that are rather independent. Same would go for the other species, I suppose.

I still think the cats are intended to be major players, the nobility and oppressing force in great parts of the OG world, of course with exceptions. Also notice how the 'cats command dogs'-pattern is mentioned in the subculture description for the rogue dog squad.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Armored Wolf » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:59 pm

tokage wrote:
Kompatriot wrote:That's actually a very good point. Note, that while my language was somewhat ambiguous, what I meant by "necessarily ruling society" was that Wolfire has never explicitly stated that cats always have to rule over a society of lesser creatures.


Yeah, you are right about that. Judging from the comic and the blog posts about the dog graveyard, as well as the subcultures mentioned in the designing cultures post(at the bottom), there are dog societies that are rather independent. Same would go for the other species, I suppose.

I still think the cats are intended to be major players, the nobility and oppressing force in great parts of the OG world, of course with exceptions. Also notice how the 'cats command dogs'-pattern is mentioned in the subculture description for the rogue dog squad.


Good find. It looks we will have to expect bribery from the cats; bribing the dogs to do there work. I like that idea.

But seriously, do you just search down all this stuff with Google, or do you know your way around the blog far too well?
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby tokage » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:03 pm

Armored_Wolf wrote:But seriously, do you just search down all this stuff with Google, or do you know your way around the blog far too well?

The blog has a google search incorporated*, but you have to know a bit what you are looking for. The stuff with the cats 'bribing' were a lucky find, when I was searching for the graveyard level.

*Doesn't work too well, by the way. Jeff, if you are reading this, why does the search spit out this link 'blog.wolfire.com/tag/art/9' with search words 'dog grave' but not the article with the excerpt itself?
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:48 pm

I read the camouflage blog and saw players discussing specie characteristics based on their senses such as cats being visual, dogs and rats with scent and rabbits feeling small tremors in the earth from thumps, and most of them hearing.

Considering they are anthropomorphic, they could have their abilities a bit dumbed down due to them not being fully animal:

I read something real interesting about rats:

"Rats possess remarkable physical abilities. Rats can: swim for half a mile, and tread water for three days; survive falling five stories and run off unharmed; fit through a hole the size of a quarter; and scale a brick wall."

I personally didn't know about the brick wall climbing trick, I am guessing some other species might not excel at this as well as rats, like dogs, wolves or rabbits, while the cats even if able to climb walls well, might not be as good as rats due to their big size compared to the rats. (I am guessing they are a bit smaller than the others), plus there might be places that only rats may fit inside of ;p.

The dog smell might be made weaker so they can't track that effectively (in real life the have VERY GOOD SMELL), but still be better at tracking than rats, rabbits in real life are extremely alert (Giant ears and wide vision), in the game they may have a sixth sense radar in which the can detect enemies close to them, rats might be harder to track find since they might adapt to smell like their surroundings or have an odor so extreme that might confuse the dogs.

This would be cool if we had the option to choose between races, giving your character racial traits that no other race may ever acquire no matter how much they train. Dog's Scent, Night vision (Cats), Misleading Odor (Rats), Sixth sense (Rabbits), Wolf's howl, Disease Resistant (Rats), Natural Scavenger (Rats).
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:01 pm

Armored_Wolf wrote:.... This post brings an interesting question to mind: Will the cats have a more governmental approach to the community? The wolves will undoubtedly have the strongest wolf be the leader, probably the same with the dogs, but the cats will probably have a more governmental system. I think the rabbits would pick whoever seems the best fit to lead, and the rats... I don't think the rats really have a community. I always thought of them as a kind of fractured species, who don't really unite in any real way...


Hmm ... not sure ... if there is a govermental system for these different species then they should probably be opposites ... like the wolf culture would probably be a dictatorship because it mirrors that Alpha-male thing that wolves do. But cats are different ... sure they fight, but i've seen them coexist without a clearly set leader ... so maybe a oligarchy? ... i dunno ...

Then the dogs kinda have a pack mentality for the most part ... i think ... i would imagine that there would be an alpha male type dog though :? ... which although mirrors nature, but i fear that the wolves and dogs would be too similar if they shared the same goverment type ...

And then there is the rabbits and rats ... so maybe a democratic goverment for rabbits and a communist like goverment for rats ... i guess the problem with that is that it could give off the impression that there is tension between the rats and rabbits.

(people associate communism and democracy as oil and vinegar due past events such as vietnam, the cold war, tension between the US and china, etc. ... i wouldn't really want a sense of dislike between the rats and rabbits at the beginning ... there should be more of a sense of indifference ... each species minds their own business)
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:03 am

Actually, about the hierarchy of the different species, they all have hierarchies.

Wolves have the alpha(s).
Dogs also have leaders since their behavior is similar to wolves.
Rabbits have a hierarchy (There is usually a top bunny)
Cats are just like the rabbits.
And even rats:

"Brown rats live in small groups whose members are probably all descended from one female. A hierarchy is established within these family groups, with one or more dominant males. The position of the rat in the hierarchy seems to depend upon it's weight rather than it's age. Females for example will not mate with males that are lighter than themselves. Each family group occupies a territory, and in areas where rat population is high, the territorial boundaries are patrolled rigorously. Intruders are identified by their smell and are expelled."


I doubt any of these can enforce democracy (Especially in a medieval setting, at least not in a large scale (Cities), there might be some sort of equalness in village life.

I also found out that all of these are highly territorial (Bunnies and rats are surprisingly as socially hardcore as wolves, dogs and cats in the animal kingdom).

So species won't be necessarily an important factor in government, just culture.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby greader » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:33 pm

Wilbefast wrote:
Assaultman67 wrote:See i don't understand why the dogs are under the cats ... that makes no sense ... it doesn't mirror nature so why do that?

I have a cat and two dogs, and I can easily see the cat manipulating the dogs into doing as she says: cats are sly and independent - dogs are stupid and loyal. I can't imagine any other possibility than cats ruling over dogs. It's as inevitable as us ruling over dogs in the real world - we're just too clever :lol:


I had an abused cat named Dot, her previous owners had pulled out her whiskers because apparently she look better that way. I also got a sickly puppy named chestnut, he is quite beautiful. Because he was so small as a puppy Dot was always beating on him. He is now really big, but very skinny. Dot took over his bed and he was terrified of her. She is no longer with me :( , but chestnut is still scared to use the bed.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Wilbefast » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:15 am

Dude! Cats need their whiskers to get around at night. That is so f'ed up!
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:58 pm

Wilbefast wrote:Dude! Cats need their whiskers to get around at night. That is so f'ed up!


You know they have some pretty serious nerve ending in those whiskers too ... it would be like chopping off a finger :?
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Armored Wolf » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:47 am

Assaultman67 wrote:
Wilbefast wrote:Dude! Cats need their whiskers to get around at night. That is so f'ed up!


You know they have some pretty serious nerve ending in those whiskers too ... it would be like chopping off a finger :?


I could start a furious argument about how cats may or may not have more nerve endings in their whiskers than we have in our fingers and continue on to suggest a better digit, limb, or appendage to slice off but I think I will decline. I would have to do research because I really don't know if it would be worse or not.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Forrest » Sat May 24, 2014 12:32 pm

What's been said about normal animals? I don't think that the sentient ones would be happy with eating each other, except maybe wolves.
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