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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:55 pm

Wilbefast wrote:
Assaultman67 wrote:See i don't understand why the dogs are under the cats ... that makes no sense ... it doesn't mirror nature so why do that?

I have a cat and two dogs, and I can easily see the cat manipulating the dogs into doing as she says: cats are sly and independent - dogs are stupid and loyal. I can't imagine any other possibility than cats ruling over dogs. It's as inevitable as us ruling over dogs in the real world - we're just too clever :lol:


I had multiple cats and a dog for 13 or so years ... but Ive never ever seen a cat manipulate a dog into doing something ... Ive seen them fight each other (often after the cat or dog got into something that masked/eliminated their smell) ... Ive seen them get along (eat out of the same bowl ... sleep by each other for warmth during the winter) ... but Ive never seen a cat somehow manipulate a dog into doing something.

I think you're just cat biased ... LOL ... personally im dog biased ... but i think a reflection of the heated cats vs dogs debate pet owners have would be a better theme rather than one rule over the other.

(then again, dogs attitudes and intelligence varies a lot with different breeds ... sheep herding dogs can be very protective and intelligent where as boxers can be really mean and stupid ... even to their masters ... cats don't vary in attitude as much from breed to breed ...)

I think the real reason some people prefer cats or dogs is due to them admiring the personalities they have ... some people admire the independent attitude that cats have, others admire the loyalty that dogs provide.

I guess its true that since dogs have that sense of loyalty they would be more likely to work for cats than vice versa ... but i think your cat biasedness will alienate some people from the story ...
Last edited by Assaultman67 on Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:15 pm

Rats (gypsies and vagabonds) and Wolves (xenophobic barbarians) are not on this picture - they'd never accept to be part of a social structure, even one that isn't all that formal.


I must disagree with rats here, in real life, even as wild non sentient beings, they live in the city to feed easily, I can easily picture them on the streets as well as merchants besides wild critters / gypsies. If sentient, I would imagine them as tricky, clever and some maybe as scholars or masters of knowledge, reading books and studying the world (Think master splinter from TMNT).

Plus I just pictured a pretty comical scene (I think its kind fo similar to the wolfire comic in the dark sense), I'll share it with ya, please read and comment.

Rat Escape

Narrator: In the cold dark room lie boxes with labels of food on them, inside those boxes noises, voices and screeches are heard, inside of these are rats begging to be let out, cursing and chewing on the bars.
These were living rats kidnapped, either loners or from their families, a secret well kept by this cat noble house, even if inhumane (in-rat/rabbit/cat/dog-ane) to slaughter a thinking being, these cats considered rats to be a tasty delicacy to be eaten in celebrations.
A cat unlocks the only exit from the chamber, a wooden door, he passes by the cages, peeking at the bars and passing its tongue over its lips in gross pleasure.

Cat Guard: It is almost time, the festival will be tomorrow and all of you prisoners are going to the kitchen. *smirks*

The screech of the hinges of a cage sound, all in the room know a prisoner has escaped, including the guard.
The wooden door closes.


Cat Guard: Looks like someone escaped, bah what is one rat less gonna do?

A projectile is launched to the feline's neck putting it instantly in a state of stupor and it knocking out few seconds later.
A rat emerges from the shadows and unlocks all the cages with the guard's keys, it then proceeds to get next to the unconscious guard.

Prisoner 1: You freed us!, what should we do now?

The escapee gets closer to the guard as if inspecting him.

Escapee: The poison should leave him unconscious for a few seconds.
Prisoner 1: He's gonna wake up that soon?
Escapee: Wake up?
The escapee slices the cat's throat with a long stave, freeing it from the mortal world.
Escapee: Someone has to let out the children from the castle, the men grab something and come with me, for the sake of the festival, were gonna give the king a little surprise of our own.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Wilbefast » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:11 am

Interesting stuff - yes: what do the Cats eat? Wolves eat rabbits, but then they are "barbarians" - are there "non-sentient" animals around to eat? And are the "sentient" ones a forbidden pleasure :o

The whole economy might be a bit topsy-turvy if they're all eating each-other though :?
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:31 am

Well, i figured that the rabbits and rats eat vegetables ... (well rats actually are omnivores but meh)

And the other animals prey on the large population of rabbits and rats to feed them ...

but if their only food was rabbits and rats their "states" would have to be incredibly small or there would have to be no distinguishable political barriers (borders) for all 4 races ... (cats, dogs, and wolves can't travel 300 miles every time they want a meal)

I figured that the carnivores don't care whether or not their food is sentient ... normally herbivores are pretty passive where as carnivores are more aggressive ... so even if you mixed in human DNA, wouldn't they keep those characteristic traits from when they were animals? Even today humans still have instinct ... have you noticed that whenever someone drops a book or there is a loud noise, people will turn and look in that direction? That's a defensive instinct. We still have a full range of emotions which have dominative control over our rational thought ... (which i guess could be a type of instinct ... we have the feeling of "fear" so self preservation kicks in when were in danger :P) Not to mention they are more closer to "animal" than we are ... so their personalities should somewhat reflect that through their behavior ... rabbits and rats should for the most part be passive and fearful (most just run from predators) where as turner and friends would turn and fight the predators (human intelligence vs animal instinct)

The eating each other would make it kinda hard for the hierarchy to exist ... (unless, rabbits were more like slaves than peasants ... otherwise you would think that the rabbits would just run away ... lol)
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Endoperez » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:01 am

Assaultman67 wrote:but if their only food was rabbits and rats their "states" would have to be incredibly small or there would have to be no distinguishable political barriers (borders) for all 4 races ... (cats, dogs, and wolves can't travel 300 miles every time they want a meal)


Dogs may be able to survive on vegetable-only or mostly-vegetable diet. A google search for "omnivore dog" (example) brings results both telling that dog digestive track can process carbohydrates, and describing that dogs evolved from carnivores and need meat to thrive. Meat-deprived dogs would probably be weak and sickly. Cats are true carnivores and need meat (although they may be able to survive for a time, since search for "vegetarian cats" also brought results).

Fish, birds and reptiles exist, and could be used to explain just where the cats and wolves get enough food to survive. This also nicely explains why cats are the nobility: because meat is expensive and cats can only eat meat, poor cats can't afford to eat. The only big game around is intelligent, and able to get rid of lone cats desperate enough to hunt them. The cat families who got rich do their best to keep rich, because running out of money is a death sentence. At the same time they got their own means of survival, they got the means to bribe dogs into service. Poor dogs are deprived of meat and weaken, and weak dogs die; enter the service of a cat and you'll get enough meat to get by. Serve well, and you'll get all the meat you want...

8) Is this cool or what? I hope Jeff & co are reading this.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:44 am

Yeah, I also thought the carnivores would just feed off those (Birds, reptiles, nonmammals etc)), the rabbits and rats could also feed on fruit, I figure the rats could also feed on insects or maybe even poisonous mushrooms (They could develop a special immunity to toxic food due to them scavenging for crap all the time).


The scene I wrote was pretty much based on this made up background:
A noble cat family owns a city, over time the races interact with each other in a sort of peaceful way (Think of the Feudal Lord and the serfs that live on his land), the family would have the city palace /castle and a few individuals of other races (Rats, rabbits, dogs) would live an urban / serf life in which they would pay taxes. All nobles and serfs would already have the right to not be eaten by one another or otherwise the serfs would have just left ;p.

By this time, a cat eating a rat would be considered murder and be executed if known publicly, that is exactly why the rats would be kidnapped and stored in a secret chamber inside the castle in which only cats had access to (They do rule the city), so that no one ever finds out of their horrible act /sin XD.

So the eating each other would be a crime with death penalty which is why the cats kidnapped the rats in secret to the rest of the city (Only the noble family and the cat guards know of this).
_________________________________________________________________________________

You could still make wild communities in addition to this urban setting, not all races must necessarily have this lifestyle, for example, the comic with the dogs and their own society.

Currency:
I dunno what you intend to do with currency (One for different races?), but a good universal currency would be something all races would find valuable...something shiny (Birds, rats and racoons collect shiny things and the other races (Dog, cat wolf) are pretty curious by nature), I am guessing something shiny scarce and durable would be minerals, so maybe the currency could be some sort of shiny pebble found only deep in the earth which they could call...Garu, Nethru, Johmi, any sort of weird name would probably fit it, I suggest something with the letter "k" in it, sounds sharp like the "rocks"...khuas, khoris, kramen, khutes.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Kompatriot » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:17 pm

First, I don't necessarily see why the existence of a sentient "dog race" excludes the existence of a non-sentient dog. Indeed, if the world is mostly or completely naturalistic, it might make more sense for there to be non-sentient dogs as well as sentient ones.

I assumed cats were the wealthiest, perhaps most populous, and most developed of the various races. That doesn't necessarily make them egalitarian; wealthy, powerful civilizations and nation states with some ideals of democracy or at least a well developed society have done barbaric things. It seems perfectly plausible that Cats would happily eat rats, and completely look down upon them as inferior, no better than pack animals. Of course, cannibalism wasn't a feature of any advance human civilization I can think of, but the analogy obviously doesn't hold since humans have never encountered a different sentient species.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Armored Wolf » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:30 pm

Kompatriot wrote:First, I don't necessarily see why the existence of a sentient "dog race" excludes the existence of a non-sentient dog. Indeed, if the world is mostly or completely naturalistic, it might make more sense for there to be non-sentient dogs as well as sentient ones.


A non-sentient dog would probably be included in as a retarded dog, or a fluke, so that he did not develop the skills the other dogs in it. I, personally, would be displeased if they if they made each race have intelligent rabbits, and normal, non-sentient rabbits. Or dogs, rats, cats, and wolves. Whatever. I think that's a crap idea, personally.

Kompatriot wrote:I assumed cats were the wealthiest, perhaps most populous, and most developed of the various races. That doesn't necessarily make them egalitarian; wealthy, powerful civilizations and nation states with some ideals of democracy or at least a well developed society have done barbaric things. It seems perfectly plausible that Cats would happily eat rats, and completely look down upon them as inferior, no better than pack animals. Of course, cannibalism wasn't a feature of any advance human civilization I can think of, but the analogy obviously doesn't hold since humans have never encountered a different sentient species.
I think the cats look down on everybody as inferior. They probably don't think of wolves or dogs as inferior in terms of aggressiveness and brute strength and combat, but probably think of them as inferior to such things as intelligence. Judging from the outfits the cats wear in the blog posts, they are certainly the "wealthiest".
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Kompatriot » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:11 pm

Is a chimp a retarded human, or a separate species?
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Endoperez » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:05 pm

Kompatriot wrote:Is a chimp a retarded human, or a separate species?


I didn't realize the context at first. Hope no one flames you for this comment.

I believe there won't be any non-intelligent mammals. I'm afraid I can't direct you to any source, but I read it somewhere on this forum during the last year. It probably wasn't a comment from the Wolfire team, but hearsay from someone who's been around for longer.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby tokage » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:58 pm

Endoperez is right, all mammals are anthropomorphic or to quote David:
David wrote:Mammals are all anthropomorphic, while lizards, snakes, birds, fish, etc. are not. If there are mounts, they would probably be very large birds or lizards, but most likely there won't be any :)

That quote is from 2006, though.

That thing with the chimp is a nice philosophical question...
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Wilbefast » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:03 pm

Kompatriot wrote:Of course, cannibalism wasn't a feature of any advance human civilization I can think of, but the analogy obviously doesn't hold since humans have never encountered a different sentient species.


Except Neanderthals :wink:

As for cannibalism: natural selection works on many levels, and at the end of the day the higher up the food-chain the thing you're eating is, the more toxins it'll have picked up along the way - this is why people rarely eat carnivores. So apart from the social aspect, it's just a bad idea to eat other human beings.
Sentient or not though, if a rabbit-man only eats grass, it's not going to be a problem eating him - not physically at any rate :wink:
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:30 pm

Armored_Wolf wrote:... I think the cats look down on everybody as inferior. They probably don't think of wolves or dogs as inferior in terms of aggressiveness and brute strength and combat, but probably think of them as inferior to such things as intelligence. Judging from the outfits the cats wear in the blog posts, they are certainly the "wealthiest".


Im not sure if wealth is that easy to deduct ... its possible that the cats just have a different culture in which cats try to grab each other's attentions with colorful clothes ... where as other species have a culture that aims more for practicality and not about color ...

Think of cats as being those people who take out loans for expensive cars, buy expensive clothes, etc ... but they're not that prosperous, but they try to flaunt to others and look prosperous.

sorta like a "keeping up with the neighbors" view on their entire culture ... they always try to outdo each other in fashion and appearance ...

But i still stick with what i said earlier ... if you put cats above dogs, or vice versa, you're going to alienate people (admit it ... if dogs were leaders over cats you'd be pissed and the story would seem shot to hell to you) ... so rather than put one in charge of the other you need to have a very well balanced competition between them.

Think of it like running for a goverment position ... if you can run without giving people a clear idea of who's side you're on, you won't alienate anyone :D ... lol

Wilbefast wrote:
Kompatriot wrote:Of course, cannibalism wasn't a feature of any advance human civilization I can think of, but the analogy obviously doesn't hold since humans have never encountered a different sentient species.


Except Neanderthals :wink: ...


To be fair they were still dumber than us :P ...

Endoperez wrote:
Kompatriot wrote:Is a chimp a retarded human, or a separate species?


I didn't realize the context at first. Hope no one flames you for this comment. ...


I chose to smile politely and nod ... WAIT! THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Armored Wolf » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:02 pm

Assaultman67 wrote:
Armored_Wolf wrote:... I think the cats look down on everybody as inferior. They probably don't think of wolves or dogs as inferior in terms of aggressiveness and brute strength and combat, but probably think of them as inferior to such things as intelligence. Judging from the outfits the cats wear in the blog posts, they are certainly the "wealthiest".


Im not sure if wealth is that easy to deduct ... its possible that the cats just have a different culture in which cats try to grab each other's attentions with colorful clothes ... where as other species have a culture that aims more for practicality and not about color ...


Correct on all points, I completely agree with you. :D

Assaultman67 wrote:Think of cats as being those people who take out loans for expensive cars, buy expensive clothes, etc ... but they're not that prosperous, but they try to flaunt to others and look prosperous.

sorta like a "keeping up with the neighbors" view on their entire culture ... they always try to outdo each other in fashion and appearance ...

This post brings an interesting question to mind: Will the cats have a more governmental approach to the community? The wolves will undoubtedly have the strongest wolf be the leader, probably the same with the dogs, but the cats will probably have a more governmental system. I think the rabbits would pick whoever seems the best fit to lead, and the rats... I don't think the rats really have a community. I always thought of them as a kind of fractured species, who don't really unite in any real way.

Assaultman67 wrote:But i still stick with what i said earlier ... if you put cats above dogs, or vice versa, you're going to alienate people (admit it ... if dogs were leaders over cats you'd be pissed and the story would seem shot to hell to you) ... so rather than put one in charge of the other you need to have a very well balanced competition between them.

Yes, balanced competition. Maybe some kind of war, not one where there is fighting always going on, but kind of like a shadow one, where they are definitely enemies but there isn't any real fighting.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:32 pm

Who controls who? Cats or dogs?
Last I heard, the only dogs under control of cats are those raised by them when they were puppies, makes sense to serve the master who raised me as some sort of bodyguard, while the other dogs who grew up with other dogs would despise cats.

Rat Leaders
I always pictured rats to not have a direct leader, but the village might have a master, sensei or shaman who is very wise and takes the crucial decisions of war and judgment of those who commit crimes. Of course, the urban rats (Who live in cities) wouldn't have these as they would commonly be independent (Be it in small groups or maybe a loner).

Middle class cats
Makes sense for there to be poor cats (Not as poor as the other races), but not as rich as surrounded by gold, maybe cats could borrow money from the rich cats and then not be able to pay them back, then the other cats send mercenaries to kill those and retrieve whatever possessions they have :D.
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