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Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:07 pm

As I was checking the site ( I come here once in a while since I am unable to obtain the alpha due to economic reasons) , and I expected some lore to have already been revealed ignoring the talk about not revealing the story a while back in the blog.

I searched the forums to see the communities curiosity on the lore, all I found was a thread about someone not understanding christianity (In the wolfire forum?) and this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4502&p=68536&hilit=lore#p68536, I am guessing it is the only thread concerning lore (Unless your hiding precious story in the secret forum).

Sure, fighting is the main attraction, but fighting with no good story /ambiance /mission /task /voices / poor populace and nobles / conflicts.

I'd like to start a discussion concerning this even if Devs ignore it with a few questions.

So how is the lore going on? Main story planned? Side stories we might find? any race /relationships background, factions / territories?

Do any memebers here care / made up some lore that might fit the Lugaru universe?

Since I have heard water is not to be supported anytime soon, I am guessing there are not going to be any islands / ships.

How do the dogs exist with the absence of humans?, what changed them from wolves?, in our world the humans "made" dogs, how did they morph, or did the humans exist in a world long ago which isn't recorded in the dogs knowledge / recorded history, if humans were to have existed long ago it would make very good ancient monuments / missions /quests / easter eggs of ancient ruins.

How do the different races interact in society, discrimination, peasants and nobles, outcasts, kings and monarchy, no government and total chaos, clans (As in families), taxes, wars and conflicts, any history, daily activities (What do they do, how do they behave, how do they react to stranger / attacks / insults and charity), valuable materials (Pelts, gold, jewelry, food, do any of these have any extraordinary value to a certain race's opinion)?

How do the different races manage their military / economic activities, do any of these make outposts, small villages, hide in the forest, nomads, build castles, boats, towers, do they have considerable armies or small parties acting independently, do they have kings, is the entire race united under a single banner or in some sort of civil / race war?

Religion, idols, temples, gods (They must worship some deity), some examples of what I might guess are:
Rats, in real life, rats go around collecting food, so maybe they have some Rak' kiri the Deity of Scavenging or an evil deity Yuj' Mehko the God of Thievery and Poison, the dogs could have gods of war, nobility, glory. The wolves a god of the moon, the river, the forest, union / brotherhood (The do live in packs and families /clans), the cats might worship deities of riches / money and power, maybe some of these /other races might discard the entire idea of gods and be some sort of atheists.

Any of these should start a worthy discussion.

To keep discussion coherent, I beg of you to quote the post to which you respond so wem know what you are talking about.
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Postby Zhukov » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:09 pm

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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:56 am

Interesting, I found this link to be the most relevant one though

http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/01/designing-cultures/

It appears Wolfire made a rough sketch, not bad, but I really hope they expanded it (Probably behind the scenes).

The lore is basically the content of the game which ultimately ends up being the game itself.

The comments also grabbed my attention, all the social aspects of the races reflecting on their real life kin.

What I think
This is how I'd imagine lugaru from what I have seen so far with no geographic material to base on.

Cats are greedy, traitorous, loners, smart, cunning, egotistical, overconfident.
Rabbits are overenergetic, not gullible, adaptable, curious, merciful.
Dogs are humble, friendly, gullible, loyal, trusting, courageous, emotionally delicate.
Wolves are savage, close to their brothers, don't trust stranger and even less other species.
Rats are tricky, elusive, knowledgeable (Reading books and literature), cautious and charismatic

Basing on the fact that cats use dogs to work for them I am seeing as the cats are very open to exploiting the other races to work for /under them while they get all the riches, meaning these could rule cities with a diverse amount of species living next to each other in everyday life aside from their own specie exclusive settlements.

Cats would rule all major cities or known regions with the population consisting of cat / dog / rabbits /rats, the dogs /rabbits and rats might be the majority in peasant population seeing as the cats are the "Kings", "Drug lords / Mafia", the dogs and rabbits would be your typical oppressed citizen or guards while the rats would commit to doing dirty work such as pulling scams / tricking the populace or even your typical traveling merchant (It would be so cute to see a rat with his tiny chariot of goods.

The big cities, if any, would be divided in sections, the rich district and the various peasant districts of the respective races, one with small rat sized houses, stone carved shacks for dogs and I am guessing some rabbits would also adopt a certain low rank in the nobility over time aside from there being a few poor ones.

The wolves wouldn't be a common sight in major cities since they would probably form clans (Consisting only of their families and close kin / friends), these would really care a lot for each other than the other races to the extend in which they would sacrifice themselves or dedicate their lives to the loss of their brothers / brethren, I am guessing they would make camps or even adopt nomad culture while hunting /scavenging /fishing, the clans would probably avoid the cities living in the heavy forested regions unless if pushed to an extent by a certain ruler :p(I smell a juicy story).

The other races could also have settlements outside cities in which only they ruled (Dogs in the comic), maybe some rats could make small villages hidden in swamps, the rabbits could have the cli ché styled villages in the country (Maybe with city tax payers visiting every now and then).

This prediction could drastically change if I were given a map of the general geography of the world.

Races (Skip if you like)
I am also interested in the ability to choose different races to play as (Wolf / Dog / Cat / Rat), I really hope alternate character of these races are made besides turner so we can have some gameplay of these guys, the rat could do very interesting missions while the wolf could be fighting rival clans, and the cat would have to move higher in the noble hierarchy through campaigns and assassinations.

This game's lore is so open that the only limit is time / money /technology rather than creativity.

I could write stories in this setting for hours on end (These is so much material).

I really hope the game is expanded to a more "make your own story" feel rather than a "fully linear turner kill everyone campaign".
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Wilbefast » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:49 am

If you're going to talk particularly about species there's a thread in the SPF about it (search for 'species'). Generally discussion about Overgrowth takes place there because heckling the development team seems justified if your an "investor" :wink:

The Dogs' culture has been discussed quite a lot... somewhere - they're soldiers through and through, sort of like Samurai: fighting is what they do.

As for the general Lore though - not much has gone in, the engine is the main concern at the moment, and soon we'll be moving on to combat (finally!) :mrgreen: So yeah - knock yourself out. They're open to suggestions provided they're good ones :wink:

There's some stuff to inherit from Lugaru though: Lugaru took place on the eponymous island (which is to say the island called "Lugaru"), inhabited exclusively by rabbits until wolves show up and start trying to enslave them. The wolves arrive because they've killed and eaten everything back where they came from and are starving, so the king makes a deal with them - he'll be spared and they'll be able to eat his subjects (though this is all part of his cunning plan apparently). Then he tricks Turner into killing the raiders, who are the only people who might possible get in the way. Ultimately Turner kills everyone and then wanders off into the sunset like any good Spaghetti Western hero.

Overgrowth likely takes place on a different Island because there are other species - Turner will therefore be an outsider which works out quite well: the player will be discovering this world at the same time as he is.
The rabbits, who in isolation had had a king and a whole hierarchy, are, in this new land, a small part of a much larger society, though probably a rather informal one based on taking what you can from those who can't protect themselves as well:

Image

Rats (gypsies and vagabonds) and Wolves (xenophobic barbarians) are not on this picture - they'd never accept to be part of a social structure, even one that isn't all that formal.

So yeah - rabbits are oppressed but not defenceless, and dogs might be bossed around by the cats, but they're more oppressors than oppressed :P
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:18 am

See i don't understand why the dogs are under the cats ... that makes no sense ... it doesn't mirror nature so why do that?

I figure if there is a social hierarchy between species its most likely going to resemble a food chain and the bitter rivalries in nature ...

So Wolves->Dogs->Cats->Rabbits/Rats ...

However ... I don't think it would make a good story for the species to be cooperative with each other at all ... I'm thinking each species is more like a warring state with each other and each state's power should directly resemble that of the food chain

(thus the wolves are the most powerful ... dogs and cats are about the same ... and rats and rabbits are the two weakest states ...

The dogs and cats should obviously be enemies with each other ... (they hate each others guts) but the wolves are really powerful so they both hate the wolves

at some point I think in the middle of the story (after some inevitable war breaks out between the rabbits and whomever ... probably the wolves) the rats ally themselves with the rabbits

Basically I'm thinking more like a ninja World War I scenario where alliances are made and the Wolf race would be the "Germany".
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Armored Wolf » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:43 pm

Assaultman67 wrote:See i don't understand why the dogs are under the cats ... that makes no sense ... it doesn't mirror nature so why do that?


Who said Overgrowth mirrors nature? I've never seen a group of rabbits rape/murder another group of rabbits, or a rabbit brutally murder a wolf. That said, good point.

Assaultman67 wrote:I figure if there is a social hierarchy between species its most likely going to resemble a food chain and the bitter rivalries in nature ... So Wolves->Dogs->Cats->Rabbits/Rats ...


Wolves don't really eat dogs, so it should be Wolves/Dogs->Cats>Rabbits/Rats.



Assaultman67 wrote:However ... I don't think it would make a good story for the species to be cooperative with each other at all ... I'm thinking each species is more like a warring state with each other and each state's power should directly resemble that of the food chain


I think it will be a bit more hectic then "states". From the looks of the comic, the dogs appear to be fractured already.



Assaultman67 wrote:(thus the wolves are the most powerful ... dogs and cats are about the same ... and rats and rabbits are the two weakest states ...

The dogs and cats should obviously be enemies with each other ... (they hate each others guts) but the wolves are really powerful so they both hate the wolves


Except Turner finished off the alpha wolf in Lugaru, after the Alpha-Wolf mentioned that without the wolves to prey on the rabbits, the rabbits would multiply and "overgrowth". So I don't think rabbits will be that weak in Overgrowth, and I think they might be planning some kind of "rabbit civil war."


Assaultman67 wrote:at some point I think in the middle of the story (after some inevitable war breaks out between the rabbits and whomever ... probably the wolves) the rats ally themselves with the rabbits


You think that should happen, or you think that does happen?

Assaultman67 wrote:Basically I'm thinking more like a ninja World War I scenario where alliances are made and the Wolf race would be the "Germany".


Personally, I think that would be lame. Just my opinion.

Sheesh, this thread is full of text blocks.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:54 pm

Armored_Wolf wrote:
Assaultman67 wrote:See i don't understand why the dogs are under the cats ... that makes no sense ... it doesn't mirror nature so why do that?


Who said Overgrowth mirrors nature? I've never seen a group of rabbits rape/murder another group of rabbits, or a rabbit brutally murder a wolf. That said, good point.


Well not exactly as i said before, whenever overgrowth doesn't mirror nature it should mirror human characteristics that set us apart from animals (suggested by their humanlike anatomy) ... for example, in nature, rabbits would normally run away from predators, but humans have an odd tendency to defy instinct and face their problem head on using our intellect.

Just saying that it would be cool to have a reoccurring human intelligence vs animal instinct theme (such as the rabbits have to overcome their instinctive fear of wolves to fight them)

Armored_Wolf wrote:Wolves don't really eat dogs, so it should be Wolves/Dogs->Cats>Rabbits/Rats.

I put wolves above dogs because they seem more powerful than dogs i guess its not an exact replica of a food chain (although I bet a wolf would eat a dog if it was hungry enough :shock: )

Armored_Wolf wrote:I think it will be a bit more hectic then "states". From the looks of the comic, the dogs appear to be fractured already.


Yea, i didn't really know what other word to use "country" seemed more united than "state". But there does need to be some unity for each species ... more so within the same species than cross species (although not a utopia ... utopias are dull)



Armored_Wolf wrote:Except Turner finished off the alpha wolf in Lugaru, after the Alpha-Wolf mentioned that without the wolves to prey on the rabbits, the rabbits would multiply and "overgrowth". So I don't think rabbits will be that weak in Overgrowth, and I think they might be planning some kind of "rabbit civil war."


I honestly never played Lugaru so (im kinda just going with what I'd do with the storyline) But now that you would say that, those words make it sound like the war is going on with the rabbits because they feel responsible to keep the rabbit population low and they feel superior to rabbits ... which seems to mirror the "racial cleansing" seen by the nazis :idea: ... LOL

Armored_Wolf wrote:You think that should happen, or you think that does happen?

I think it will probably happen since there is no real rivalry (in nature) between rabbits and rats ... and also that they will probably have a common enemy (since they're low on the food chain)


Armored_Wolf wrote:Personally, I think that would be lame. Just my opinion.


Just calling it as I expect to happen ... however a complete mirror of WWI wouldn't be likely ... there wont be exactly two sides in the war ... more like 3 or 4 ... probably 4 ... Cats vs Dogs vs Wolves vs Rabbits/Rats.

Wolves see dogs as being weak due to their codes of honor. Hate cats due to their "pretentiousness" and see rabbits and rats simply as a food source .. with the least respect of all

Dogs hates Cats ... however, this should go unexplained ... they simply hate them for no particular reason (everything about them pisses them off) ... dunno why ... (this is their animal instinct popping in ... they are just ingrained to hate cats) Dogs hate wolves for their lack of a honor code. and Dogs see rabbits and rats as a food source (little respect to the rabbit/rat kind) (they have a taste for rabbits though more so than rats)

Cats hate dogs due to the same reason dogs hate cats ... its simply ingrained instinct that makes them hate each other. Cats hate wolves due to their unrefinedness. and Cats view rats and rabbits as an unintelligent food source (they have a particular taste for rats though).

Thus Rabbits and Rats live in fear of the other three species and then eventually, one day, they team up to take out the wolf who is their most common enemy, during their alliance their relationship/comradeship gets stronger and they start helping each other fight off dogs and cats as well rather than just wolves. Maybe not right at the beginning due to irrelevant differences in their species, but eventually they form a strong alliance that gives them the power to defend themselves against the other three "states"

Edit: i also considered the possibility that the cats and dogs eventually get over that instinct and team up against the wolves as well. It would be a good way to demonstrate human intelligence overcoming animal instinct, but the problem is im not sure how the rats and rabbits would be able to fight against them in their united state.

but yea ... ive got this image of a band of rats and rabbits fighting against a group of cats attacking a rat village and a cutscene where a cat uses the line line "Stay out of this Rabbit! I'm going to dine on rat tonight. This is none of your concern!" But the rabbits disagree "respectively" and help kick the attacking cat's asses ... thus strengthing their rabbit/rat relationship.

Image
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Kompatriot » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:05 pm

The background of the setting may be explained with a mythology, rather than in a naturalistic way.

Thus, a question to the effect of "Why do dogs exist in OG where humans are absent, and hence the selective pressures which created them in the first place are not present?" could be easily circumvented. I find mythology to be more interesting often times than naturalism in this sense, because a). believable naturalism would be very difficult to pull off, and bad naturalism is unbearable, and b). if I'm going to suspend my disbelief and enter a world of talking ninja animals, why not just save yourself the trouble and tie up the loose ends with folklore?

That opens up some interesting possibilities anyways.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:17 pm

Kompatriot wrote:The background of the setting may be explained with a mythology, rather than in a naturalistic way.

Thus, a question to the effect of "Why do dogs exist in OG where humans are absent, and hence the selective pressures which created them in the first place are not present?" could be easily circumvented. I find mythology to be more interesting often times than naturalism in this sense, because a). believable naturalism would be very difficult to pull off, and bad naturalism is unbearable, and b). if I'm going to suspend my disbelief and enter a world of talking ninja animals, why not just save yourself the trouble and tie up the loose ends with folklore?

That opens up some interesting possibilities anyways.


Oooh i like that better ... creationist mythology of how these species came to be ... which would explain cats and dogs dislike for each other (disagreements between them about who the "gods" favored the most ... the old debate about which pet is better a cat or dog makes an appearance that way)

Whereas the Wolves believe in the "gods" but denounce them all together due to their wild nature ... (they could also denounce the gods considering they were the least favorited by the gods ... humans wouldn't be nearly as friendly and trusting to wolves as they would rats, rabbits, cats, and dogs thus they would recieve less love and more "smite")

"Gods more powerful than we could ever be gave us the gift of thought and changed our bodies in their likeness. Then left from this earth ..."

When in actuality there could have been a worldwide disease to wipe out mankind and the new species were invented in a desperate attempt to find a cure after scientist realized that animals seemed to be immune to the disease. however they failed and humans died out leaving their experiments behind.

Although the animal instinct vs human intelligence shouldn't be removed, just another reoccuring theme in the story.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:27 pm

Folklore...not bad ;p.
___________________________________________________________________________

I find it hard to believe that 4 different completely united sides were to be in an endless war, I am pretty sure many of these would seek peace and isolation from others while many prefer to oppress the weaker rather than eliminate them.

I also don't see how species couldn't interact with each other, what if a wolf became a very good friend of a dog?, is he going to give a crap about what his brothers tell him to do?

I'd see small villages and a few big cities scattered along the island rather than specie unified intense wars, they may be medieval, but I also sense a taste of tribal in Overgrowth's culture.

And are wolves really that evil in Overgrowth / Lugaru?, I am guessing no specie in overgrowth is truly evil, the closest one to that in my opinion are the cats, since they are solitary and like riches.

I see Overgrowth as a human mix of medieval / feudal and tribal / primitive culture, species would be divided and interact with other species as well.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:39 pm

sneaky_squirrel wrote:... I also don't see how species couldn't interact with each other, what if a wolf became a very good friend of a dog?, is he going to give a crap about what his brothers tell him to do?


Do you know what happened to the neanderthals? ... Scientists think that homo sapiens (us) killed them due to our distrust of each other and us competing for the same resources. :|

Their natural differences in all likelihood would keep them either separated or make them fight each other ...

People can barely get along with each other if they are different race ... i don't think intelligent species could co exist with a different intelligent species.

what would be more likely to happen is once species would kill off the other species long before they reached a primitive civilization form. but that makes for a bad story :P
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:10 pm

How can we be sure animals would behave that way if they reached sentience?, primates are very aggressive species which would explain why we are so coldhearted to what we do not understand.

Rabbits are peaceful, dogs are usually neutral to what isn't dangerous, wolves...they hunt, but they don't show hatred and if they were to reach sentience I am pretty sure they would commit murder to another sentient being only for food, killing animals would be much easier, cat usually mind their own business unless they want to "play".

In many fantasy games you see elves, orcs and humans frolicking around, I don't see why not here.

We are not a general rule for different species to fight each other, just an example.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Assaultman67 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:25 pm

Well, lets what your hierarchy scenario would be like ... how would the storyline play out based on your setting you posted earlier?

(reality should always take a backseat to good story anyway ...)

A good story needs plot, character, theme, spectacle and conflict ...

Ive got 3 of those finished (conflict, theme, and spectacle) but Plot and Character needs more work (it would probably help if i played lugaru ... meh)
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby sneaky_squirrel » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:51 pm

I could go nuts brainstorming, but It would just end up being ignored (I'm not the one developing the game), It is best if I just leave an open mind to whatever they can bake.

Plus I don't know what setting they will use, it might even be the exact opposite of what I think it is, so expanding on my idea would be completely useless. I thought rats could live in urban-castle styled cities, apparently they are country mice.

Indeed a story needs characters and a plot.
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Re: Overgrowth Lore

Postby Wilbefast » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:34 am

Assaultman67 wrote:See i don't understand why the dogs are under the cats ... that makes no sense ... it doesn't mirror nature so why do that?

I have a cat and two dogs, and I can easily see the cat manipulating the dogs into doing as she says: cats are sly and independent - dogs are stupid and loyal. I can't imagine any other possibility than cats ruling over dogs. It's as inevitable as us ruling over dogs in the real world - we're just too clever :lol:
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