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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:59 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:This is actually a concept that GamerGate holds near and dear. It never wants to go outside gaming and into the other media. It never has it's own unanimous "Voice" (Unlike feminism, which has important figureheads that most people look up to, while GG holds everyone equally). So when Anita goes onto ABC and says a lot of anti-gamergate shit. GG just raises it's shields and waits for the normals and outsiders to come into gaming. Only to get bashed by people who know what they're talking about.


Anonymous activist groups don't fit into the real world's established ways of changing things - they'd need a new method, new rules, and it doesn't exist yet. For example, anonymous groups have no member list. That means that anyone can do anything in the movement's name, and belong to it. If a troll says he is part of GamerGate, he is. There's no list of members and no list of rules that would disqualify trolls. If there is, that is a golden calf at the very least, a precious idol, but it's also likely the result of a figurehead and a representing central site.

GamerGate already has representing voices and figureheads. Support of figureheads rarely is unanimous, and isn't here. When some GG speaks, few people notice. When a big name speaks, hundreds of people take immediate action.

Normals and outsiders got into gaming years ago. 58% of USA plays video games, but they're not into the gamer culture. There's been talk about how the gamer demographic doesn't have to be the game devs' audience ("gamers are dead") any more, there's new options now available. If gamer culture adapts, it might become a huge, influential way of life across the Western world. If not, games will be influential and powerful media-slash-entertainment, but gamers will stay a marginal group.

There's a difference. GG doesn't care about ethics outside of journalism, it only cares about journalistic ethics. Anything else is entirely secondary.


As long as that is true, I cannot in good conscience support GamerGate. That is a harmful stance, liable to hurt people.

Journalistic ethics govern only journalists. Every single person needs to follow some ethical rules. If GG ignores that, their own actions may, as a congregate effect, end up hurting more people than games journalism does.

A good cause does not justify unethical means.

I am aware of the term (Thank you Spec Ops!), you're probably feeling it now.


Not really. I didn't get any new information. The diversity paper I still haven't completely digested, though.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:44 am

So since we are a dew comments further i think editing my old comment isn't worth it.

There was a woman (can't remember the name) who went to feminism meetings and the things they discussed there where sick! Destruction of the family and completely ruin the father.
That woman noticed that those woman where very aggressive.
Later on she build a "don't touch my body" house where woman who have been abused could get help.
72% of the woman who came there where as aggressive as the feministic woman and the story they told pointed out that the man did nothing wrong and that the woman where playing "victim" (like psychopaths do (i'm not saying those woman where psychopaths)).
Also the word feminism is in dutch feminisme.
Isme can be replaced by everything is and femini means woman in latin.
So actually feminism means everything woman.
Isn't that crazy? And why are those woman talking about destruction of the whole family and ruining the father. I mean what did your kids do that you want to ruin your family.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby EPR89 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:07 am

rodeje25 wrote:72% of the woman who came there where as aggressive as the feministic woman and the story they told pointed out that the man did nothing wrong and that the woman where playing "victim" (like psychopaths do (i'm not saying those woman where psychopaths)).

Gonna need a source on that.
Especially one that explains how this can be attributed to women shelters everywhere and not just that one you referenced (without actually providing a reference).
Also the word feminism is in dutch feminisme.
Isme can be replaced by everything is and femini means woman in latin.
So actually feminism means everything woman.

Nice conspiracy theory.
I mean, sure, femini isn't a Latin word and -isme is just the Dutch suffix that corresponds to the English -ism and is used for every word that is constructed that way.
I don't quite understand how "isme" can just be replaced with "everything is", but I'm convinced that your true goal here was to prove that you are full of shit.
Nicely done, I say!

I especially like how nothing of this is related to the topic of this thread and how you come across as someone who just tries to make feminism look bad by bringing up some extreme examples and then claiming that every feminist actually thinks that way and actually wants to ruin families. Those sick, twisted, horrible, despicable people, right?
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:56 pm

It's very simple. Some feminists are bad people.

There is a small man-hating group of feminists. Men are the cause of all evil, without men there would be no wars, anything male is evil, anything male is oppression of women, men shouldn't be allowed near kids so they don't teach kids their evil ways, and so on. Extremely radical views. Those sorts of viewpoints used to be more common a few decades back, I think, maybe during the 1970s or something. There was something about "we're for equality, so we won't have any leaders! We'll talk through it as a group! We'll choose who talks to the media randomly!" and other such stuff.

There's various groups of people that assume all feminists are those sorts of feminists. Just because some feminists are weird and even harmful, it shouldn't hurt your opinion of all the feminists. The feminists I talk to, and follow on social media, are quite moderate. Sometimes they're angry, though. :lol:


Feminism as the movement stands for "equality for women". That's not what etymology of the word, maybe, but it's what the word is used for. Why "equality for women" instead of "equality for all humans"? Feminism assumes that women are in a worse position in society and culture. Examples:

Why were most rulers kings instead of queens? Why is the oldest son the one that will be crowned a monarch even if he has several older sisters (historically, at least)? Why were men the primary movers in most of the rich medieval guilds, instead of women? Why do women change their names, instead of men (Iceland is a cool exception though)? Why have there been so few woman presidents across the world? Why weren't women allowed to vote until rather late?

If men have more power, then the way to equality is in raising women up to the men's level.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:59 pm

Endoperez wrote:men shouldn't be allowed near kids so they don't teach kids their evil ways, and so on.


this is could be the dumbest thing i've ever heard of feminism.
there was a son born in a family of many girls (3 or 4?) and they decided not to buy weapon-like toys for him. when he was 2 years old an empty toilet roll turned into a gun (imagination) and he mad shooting sound and was shooting people (again imagination). that was pretty funny when i heard it.

There's various groups of people that assume all feminists are those sorts of feminists. Just because some feminists are weird and even harmful, it shouldn't hurt your opinion of all the feminists. The feminists I talk to, and follow on social media, are quite moderate. Sometimes they're angry, though. :lol:


i should mention that i'm not talking about every feminist (woops!).

ohw btw EPR89 i will explain things some more and see if you still think it is a conspiracy theory that feminism is everything is woman (it was something in that way but i can't remember it right)
btw you where right about femini not being something in latin but femina is something in latin (unless you can prove that my dad who learned latin on school (i'm talking about the latin the greeks spoke) is wrong about that).
and see if you still think my true goal is to prove that i'm full of shit. (this hit me. so if that was what you wanted to do you succeeded.)
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby EPR89 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:40 pm

rodeje25 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:men shouldn't be allowed near kids so they don't teach kids their evil ways, and so on.


this is could be the dumbest thing i've ever heard of feminism.

I hope you realise that Endo was just giving an example of how feminism started.
Of course they were angry back then. That was the whole reason why feminism became a thing. They felt that the situation was unfair (and it was and still is to some extent) and the people who maintained that system were men. Of course their anger was directed at them. The more less radical groups (today's feminism largely has come from that direction) targeted the male establishment, i.e. men in power who are responsible for this unfair situation, the more radical ones went for men in general. That's a stupid over-generalisation that assumes that all men are one huge homogeneous group. Views like that are not constructive. That's why they are at the radical fringe of the movement today.

If you want me to stop thinking that you are full of shit you should probably stop claiming stuff without backing it up or making stupid over-generalisations that make it sound like you are talking about feminism as if it was one huge homogeneous (and apparently evil) group.
Don't tell me that you will explain to me at some point that what you have earlier claimed is true. I don't give a crap about that. Just explain it.
As far as I know, -isme is a Dutch suffix. It's the same as -ism in English, or -ismus in German. So I highly doubt that the feminism-related community in the Netherlands has chosen that term to send a secret message.
But hey! If you know more about it, feel free to tell us about it. I mean, you've been hinting at it for so long now.

Oh, speaking of not backing your stuff up and making the impression of being full of shit, the ancient Greeks did not speak Latin. They spoke ancient Greek.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:52 pm

EPR89 wrote:
rodeje25 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:men shouldn't be allowed near kids so they don't teach kids their evil ways, and so on.


this is could be the dumbest thing i've ever heard of feminism.

I hope you realise that Endo was just giving an example of how feminism started.

I do but it sounds dumb.
the ancient Greeks did not speak Latin. They spoke ancient Greek.


God, where i the romans then? Who spoke latin back in the day?

Ohw and about the isme thing. Isme means everything is nothing else than what comes before it.(what comes before it refers to the word coming before it)
You may or may not find anything of it on the internet but the source i used i school.
Yes that's right my dad learned this on school (i'm referering a lot to my dad because we have a lot of interesting conversations when we are having dinner).
Last edited by rodeje25 on Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby EPR89 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:31 pm

the ancient Greeks did not speak Latin. They spoke ancient Greek.

God, where it the romans then? Who spoke latin back in the day?

Yep. It's been the Romans.
Small because it's not really important for the thread.



rodeje25 wrote:
EPR89 wrote:I hope you realise that Endo was just giving an example of how feminism started.

I do but it sounds dumb.


Of course it sounds dumb now.
It's an example of the early radical views that were needed to start the movement and make a change in the first place. Big social changes always start provocatively. Back then the situation was different. Today women get paid less and are under-represented in leading positions. Back then, a woman who wanted to have a career was not just at a disadvantage, it was unacceptable in some professions. The status women have now would have been impossible without people becoming vocal.
Sure, some of those vocal groups did not act in a constructive way, but that's what happens when a large group feels that it is treated unfairly for no good reason. The same thing happened when people started to protest against segregation, it's happening now with the status of homosexuals and it has happened for many similar social issues.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:43 pm

I mostly agree with EPR, although I know radical feminists still exist. One particular group, TERF, is saying transgender women aren't women. Many other feminists are fighting for transgender people's rights, and those two groups barely stand each other.

Any way! History! Yay!


Romans of the Roman Empire spoke Latin. Greeks, Greek. Well, mostly.

There were Greeks. They spoke Greek. Romans, from Rome, spoke Latin, but some studied Greek because Greek philosophers were well known and appreciated. Romans also thought Greek gods were cool so they adopted them with new names! Ares -> Mars, Zeus -> Jupiter etc.
As it grew strong, Rome invaded Greece. The Greeks became Romans because Greece was part of Rome. Centuries later, Rome, the city, fell. Rome, the imperium, survived. The capital of the East Rome was (at this point) Constantinople, known as Byzantium before and Istanbul in modern days. The official language of East Rome became Greek.

So Romans did in fact speak Greek, eventually, and some Greeks Latin, when they were Romans. :mrgreen:

The division is pretty big.

In the West, Latin Alphabet,Catholicism, Holy Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Roman-inspired laws and so on in the west. And all those stories about ancient, advanced, fallen civilizations.

In the East, Greek and later Cyrillic alphabet. Orthodoxy. Rome, as Byzantine empire, only fell after/during the crusades - that was incredibly tragic. The last Emperor's family lived on in the nearby nation through a marriage to the local king/lord, who named themselves Caesars - or Tsars. The bloodline of Rurik dynasty died later, before Russia was united but about 1000 years after Rome fell. The title survived.

Cool stuff! The last 'Caesars' died 100 years ago.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:02 pm

Endoperez wrote:I mostly agree with EPR, although I know radical feminists still exist. One particular group, TERF, is saying transgender women aren't women. Many other feminists are fighting for transgender people's rights, and those two groups barely stand each other.

Now i'm joining the side wich fights for trans-gender people's rights
Any way! History! Yay!

Yay!
Romans of the Roman Empire spoke Latin. Greeks, Greek. Well, mostly.

There were Greeks. They spoke Greek. Romans, from Rome, spoke Latin, but some studied Greek because Greek philosophers were well known and appreciated. Romans also thought Greek gods were cool so they adopted them with new names! Ares -> Mars, Zeus -> Jupiter etc.
As it grew strong, Rome invaded Greece. The Greeks became Romans because Greece was part of Rome. Centuries later, Rome, the city, fell. Rome, the imperium, survived. The capital of the East Rome was (at this point) Constantinople, known as Byzantium before and Istanbul in modern days. The official language of East Rome became Greek.

So Romans did in fact speak Greek, eventually, and some Greeks Latin, when they were Romans. :mrgreen:

The division is pretty big.

In the West, Latin Alphabet,Catholicism, Holy Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Roman-inspired laws and so on in the west. And all those stories about ancient, advanced, fallen civilizations.

In the East, Greek and later Cyrillic alphabet. Orthodoxy. Rome, as Byzantine empire, only fell after/during the crusades - that was incredibly tragic. The last Emperor's family lived on in the nearby nation through a marriage to the local king/lord, who named themselves Caesars - or Tsars. The bloodline of Rurik dynasty died later, before Russia was united but about 1000 years after Rome fell. The title survived.

Cool stuff! The last 'Caesars' died 100 years ago.


Most of this is stuff i learned at school but the rest is interesting and i didn't knew the tsars were calli g themselves "Caesars" i do know from a documentary the last tsars where executed in a basement (i think i'm wrong agian my memory isn't that well at night (nope i'm 50/50 right they where executed in a semi-basement. Source: wikipedia)) .
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:08 pm



Good for you Endo! You still have the moral high-ground.
That was sarcasm, you don't.
See why you don't represent all feminists now?
See why you GG isn't the bad evil conglomerate you make it out to be that was literally worse then Hitler?
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:09 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:See why you don't represent all feminists now?
See why you GG isn't the bad evil conglomerate you make it out to be that was literally worse then Hitler?


I agree with these points. I don't represent all feminists. GG is the bad evil group that is bad, but I haven't compared it to Nazis.

MundaneMatt said that people opposing GamerGate have mental problems. Urgh. Biased much?

Someone who opposes GamerGate seems to have been involved in an unfortunate case of pepper spray. No one was targeted, but still stupid.

https://twitter.com/srhbutts/status/561 ... 63616?s=09
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:24 am

On the internet: FUCK YOU gamergate!
At a psychiatrist: it seems i have mental problems
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:33 pm


I'm gonna do us all a service and keep the angry arguments here instead of in the randomness topic, so that actual discussion can continue and blatant shit/anime spewing can remain were it is (Whether the randomness thread is the former or the latter is entirely up to debate though).
So, in order to actually contribute to discussion, I'll rant first and have an actual discussion afterward, but the video mostly speaks for itself.
Here's the rant to begin with:
I. Fucking. Called it.
I told you all since the moment they said "Games should move away from entertainment" that this was happening.
I told you that anyone who says "Video games should move from entertainment to art" or anything that sounds that pretentious and "progressive" probably has some shit going on in the background.
And that comes from someone who wants video games to become meaningful and different experiences, which is why I buy indie games nearly exclusively.

EC has been like this WAY BEFORE the GG hashtag started. Since the toxicity video started (The progressive vocabulary is really limited) up and people were spurring on discussion about how horrible the internet was. God for-fucking-bid people deal with text on a screen like a human being.
Trash talk, harassment and getting bitched at on the internet are 3 totally different things, and always will be.
Harassment is continuing and interferes with your everyday life. Getting bitched at is just some asshole telling you how stupid your "Progressive" ideas are. And trash talk is just that, trash talk, meaningless and harmless.

Actual discussion:
Pretty much what I said before. I saw this coming miles away, their stance on GG is stupid ("GG hasn't accomplished anything. Get away from the pricks that bash our glorious savior Anita." [Yes, that was a paraphrase. I couldn't find the post about it so I just posted the short interpretation.]) and their constant raving about how games should become art has done nothing but make sure your average walking simulator will get praise (Meanwhile Gods Will Be Watching is toiling in the review section from the very same people that praise the Walking Dead for it's story. Art games, FTW) while actual games are gonna get torn apart. Hence why many games that focus on gameplay first and story second get torn apart occasionally like Hatred.
Sure, art games need to exist. But they need to remain on their itty bitty little section of the industry. Let games like Hatred exist, and I'll have no problem with shit like The Walking Dead existing.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby kibaoo » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:42 pm

before games can be called "Art", Metal Gear Solid 5 Phantom Pain has to be released.
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