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Video games have been ruined forever... again!

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:32 pm

i think woman could do anything even if they have different bodies (something bigger in the brain wich allows them to multitask better (apparantly), breasts, etc) they are still the same as men because woman could do the exact same thing agianst men actually. because we are also different from woman like we are taller (in general), have more hair on our bodies and we don't have breasts and we have a penis etc. but i think it is weird that it has to be done by making organisations like feminism (not sure if it is an organisation tough) to do this stuff. and if woman want video games to change then why do they want to change existing video games and upcoming video games. i mean woman can learn coding to and they can start making their own games too and of course woman can play video games and i wouldn't see why men would say woman shouldn't play video games because on 9gag i see a lot of pictures about boys being able to game with their gf and that would be a paradise then.

i hope i am more right this time and EPR i hope i made my vision about feminism and my thoughts about it less "ingorant".
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:19 pm

Why do you assume women aren't creating games already? Women developers are a minority, but they do exist. They seem to be more common as game artists than as game programmers, but I've met both.
Also, many women aren't feminists, and see nothing wrong in current video games. As you said, men and women can think and act in the exact same way. Many women think games are fine as-is.

I don't know why women shouldn't play games, but I've seen it said. For example:
"I think they need to stop targetin video games and do things in the real world and leave te pixel world alone. That is mostly our territory and you better keep your hands of it or we will bite!"


Maybe it's a joke... but if you are the butt of jokes often enough, it hurts. Also in games with a voice chat, a female voice will get more negative comments than male voice. And then there's cases like this. Or the "she's a fake gamer, she's not a real geek, she just does it for attention" thing, another pretty common one.

While talking about these things, try to avoid telling other people you how they should feel. "Oh, it can't be that bad!" and so on. Facts are fine. "Men get bullied too..." is fine, but "... so women shouldn't feel bad!" is not.
If you want to know how a woman in gaming feels, you should listen to what she says. You are not a woman, so you don't know what it's like for women. You need to hear it from someone who is.

-----

As far as ignorance goes, you're actually doing better than I did back when I first learned about feminism. I kept bothering these people who were trying to discuss feminism, and I basically asked joined in and asked them to explain feminism to me, instead of starting out by reading about it in Wikipedia! :oops: "I don't know what you're talking about, but boy, you sound angry! You shouldn't be angry. Is there even anything to be angry about? Oh, feminism? Please, do tell me what it's about."
There's a joke comic that pretty much describes how obnoxious I was.

You read about it as soon as you realized you needed more info, and only then started asking questions.And being able to admit your own mistakes is always a plus in my book, it's suprisingly hard. So yeah, you're good. :)
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Korban3 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:09 pm

I have a suggestion that will solve everyone's problems.
What if
stay with me here
everyone stopped being assholes
and just let other people do their thing
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby EPR89 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:49 pm

Korban3 wrote:I have a suggestion that will solve everyone's problems.
What if
stay with me here
everyone stopped being assholes
and just let other people do their thing

The problem is that the thing one guy does is the thing another guy considers an asshole move.

EDIT: HOWEVER, some of those positions can be justified, others not so much.
Last edited by EPR89 on Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:09 pm

Endoperez wrote:Why do you assume women aren't creating games already? Women developers are a minority, but they do exist. They seem to be more common as game artists than as game programmers, but I've met both.

I do know there are female developers, 22cans has woman. But that aside i mean more like why aren't there any female only teams who have woman as a target audience instead of woman working between hundreds of men.
Maybe it's a joke... but if you are the butt of jokes often enough, it hurts. Also in games with a voice chat, a female voice will get more negative comments than male voice. And then there's cases like this. Or the "she's a fake gamer, she's not a real geek, she just does it for attention" thing, another pretty common one.

I met a girl gamer on gmod and she got angry at me immediatly for asking if she was a girl. So i apoligized for asking and said it was awesome there was a girl on the server.
But this part points out to the fact that there are sooo many pictures on 9gag about boys being able to game wih their gf and that would be a paradise. So it is sooo weird that guys do this and i can't figure it out myself :P. I guess I'm very different. My sisters (3 sister, i'm the only boy in the family together with my dad) play games also and they never have been in a situation like this.

As for the following
EPR89 wrote:
Korban3 wrote:I have a suggestion that will solve everyone's problems.
What if
stay with me here
everyone stopped being assholes
and just let other people do their thing

The problem is that the thing one guy does is the thing another guy considers an asshole move.


+1. This mostly happened between endoperez and phoenixwarior.
And i consider myself as being here for mostly gathering info about feminism and here and there say what i think is weird about it and here and there i'm being awfully wrong.

And fuck autocorrect i'm Turning it of right NOW!
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:10 am

rodeje25 wrote:I do know there are female developers, 22cans has woman. But that aside i mean more like why aren't there any female only teams who have woman as a target audience instead of woman working between hundreds of men.


All-woman teams are rare, but there's Giant Spacekat at least. Probably several small companies making casual puzzle games.

Funny thing about them - the boss is actively talking about feminist issues on Twitter, but it was only after their game had already been released that they realized their game's characters were unnaturally thin and that's kinda unhealthy and bad. Here they have the original on the left.

Image

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/ ... 60384?s=09

Again, women are used to the same games as men, and just because there's more women in the team doesn't mean they do different games. I believe the team that made HuniePop was mostly female, and it's a porn puzzle game where playing well causes anime women to remove their clothes and get excited.

Do women need different games, or do they want the games we already have (that they already know and play) to treat them differently?
Many are happy with existing games having better female characters. Mass Effect had female Shepard as a choice. New Lara Croft has been praised as a well-written even from a feminist viewpoint.

There's also games like Bayonetta, where the camera tends to focus on the character's butt and her clothes fly off during special moves. Some feminists dislike the "male gaze" (= camera shows thing men stereotypically enjoy looking at, like slowly showing a woman's legs, butt, breasts...) and criticize the game. Other feminists think the female character is powerful and awesome and love the game. You can't make one game that's fun for all girls, or all boys. But if having a few more, different characters makes a game more fun for women, it might be worth the time.

I met a girl gamer on gmod and she got angry at me immediatly for asking if she was a girl. So i apoligized for asking and said it was awesome there was a girl on the server.
But this part points out to the fact that there are sooo many pictures on 9gag about boys being able to game wih their gf and that would be a paradise. So it is sooo weird that guys do this and i can't figure it out myself :P. I guess I'm very different. My sisters (3 sister, i'm the only boy in the family together with my dad) play games also and they never have been in a situation like this.


It might be different in different age groups. Maybe girl gamers are common now, but were more rare earlier? Or maybe it just seemed like that because there was no internet. I have no idea!
My sister didn't play games, but she does enjoy casual mobile games now.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:19 am

Endoperez wrote:
I met a girl gamer on gmod and she got angry at me immediatly for asking if she was a girl. So i apoligized for asking and said it was awesome there was a girl on the server.
But this part points out to the fact that there are sooo many pictures on 9gag about boys being able to game wih their gf and that would be a paradise. So it is sooo weird that guys do this and i can't figure it out myself :P. I guess I'm very different. My sisters (3 sister, i'm the only boy in the family together with my dad) play games also and they never have been in a situation like this.


It might be different in different age groups. Maybe girl gamers are common now, but were more rare earlier? Or maybe it just seemed like that because there was no internet. I have no idea!
My sister didn't play games, but she does enjoy casual mobile games now.


I think girl gamers are less rare now but still rare. Because i mostly meet very young boys with a high voice who call you a cunt when you are innocent and they are as well but thet start shootin at you because of nothing and you were able to kill them before they killed you. And i meet more normal male gamers with a lower voice and they don't call you a cunt immediatly and they don't rdm (random death match) as well.

But what was that all about gamersgate and david and totalbiscuit wich caused someone to leave and ask his money back?
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:21 am

Haha, that seems like a good description of some games! :D The cussword changes in different servers too.

I wonder what kind of players Nintendo's Splatoon will have. Bright, colourful, quite girly compared to military shooters.


GamerGate is, well, hard to discuss. Some people think GG is about ethics in journalism, and there's also some trolls but they don't matter, or are not part of GamerGate. Some people think GamerGate trolls are criminals or at least trying to drive women out of games, and anyone who associates with them in GG is suspicious no matter what they claim they found about journalists.

So if you support GamerGate, some people assume you support the people who are harassing and threatening people using GG and related tags.
At the same time if you oppose GamerGate, some people assume you are a mad feminist who tries to ruin games by bribing or shaming developers to make different games, or something. I'm not sure, because I'm against GG and don't understand the movement.

David commented on Total Biscuits comments. Total Biscuit represented the first position, David the second. Opinions started very far apart and things got heated.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Wolfire/stat ... 6784534528
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:23 am

I found some serious stuff about feminisn but i will write it when i get home. Otherwise my poor iphone would die from all the tapping on the screen..... My thumbs would die as well.


Edit: will come on sunday i'm sleeping at a friends house right now
Last edited by rodeje25 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Korban3 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:59 pm

Or we could all stop being teeth in the gears of 'war', (see what I did there) and stop using labels to divide ourselves. We all like games and we can all agree that ethics are important. Despite differences, maybe we should all just live and let live, instead of gnit picking and being stupid fucks.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:14 am

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby EPR89 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:16 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU9aU9NVDg8
Because, reasons.

You need to stop just posting random stuff here.
Write a comment on it or just let it be.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:22 pm

Oh wait fuck.

Important Note/Comment Thing because people told me to:
With KotakuInAction moving away from the standard doxxing and such (Moving toward actual ethics in journalism) this popped up.
It's proof that GG needs to exist as it is now, because it's obvious from the article that the writer didn't play the game. Instead saw this scene, and decided that social justice was more important.
See Endo? If you look on the GG Subreddit, you'll see that doxxing is forbidden and most of the posts there have been gradually shifting toward ethics. Moot (Admin of 4Chan) abandoned 4Chan for being the commander center for GG, which was supposedly evil and ruining live for the lulz. Yet at the time, GG has gradually moved on from doxxing like in the early Zoe Post days to actual ethics like they claim. Regardless of what you say, GG isn't as evil as you want to make it out to be. You can go on and on about how people talk it's talk but don't condemn those who walk it's walk. When gradually that walk has become more about ethics and protecting the gamer identity.
Hell, #NotYourShield exists.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:29 pm

That's nice, but I believe they could get more done by using a different name. A proper organization would also help, so they have a media-trained representative who can give interviews etc. It'd also help all of GamerGate to move on. The Twitter group is still following the same old community leaders, including the ones who planned things during Zoe post. As long as these people who aim for ethics in & around gaming community share the name or even ally with unethical behaviour, I won't be able to take it seriously.

I will admit that I haven't seen doxxing in KiA recently. It is still full of weird concepts and slang (so many "shills") but that on its own isn't evil.

Did you see the recent Tropes vs Women Kickstarter update? It explained quite well why the series hasn't been finished yet, and what Anita Sarkeesian & co have been doing during these years. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/56 ... ts/1115560

One interesting factoid I specifically want to point out - trying to make videos without any mistakes whatsoever is really difficult & timeconsuming. Every word is weighed. Think what you will about her, but I believe that shows she is open to criticism and tries to improve based on it.

Are you aware of the term 'cognitive dissonance'? It's the mental discomfort one experiences when receiving new information that contradicts existing values or beliefs or facts. I read about that when I realized there really are gamergaters who think it's all about ethics, sometime last October.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:20 pm

Endoperez wrote:That's nice, but I believe they could get more done by using a different name. A proper organization would also help, so they have a media-trained representative who can give interviews etc.

This is actually a concept that GamerGate holds near and dear. It never wants to go outside gaming and into the other media. It never has it's own unanimous "Voice" (Unlike feminism, which has important figureheads that most people look up to, while GG holds everyone equally). So when Anita goes onto ABC and says a lot of anti-gamergate shit. GG just raises it's shields and waits for the normals and outsiders to come into gaming. Only to get bashed by people who know what they're talking about.

It'd also help all of GamerGate to move on. The Twitter group is still following the same old community leaders, including the ones who planned things during Zoe post. As long as these people who aim for ethics in & around gaming community share the name or even ally with unethical behaviour, I won't be able to take it seriously.

There's a difference. GG doesn't care about ethics outside of journalism, it only cares about journalistic ethics. Anything else is entirely secondary.


I will admit that I haven't seen doxxing in KiA recently. It is still full of weird concepts and slang (so many "shills") but that on its own isn't evil.

It's a remnant from 4Chan, shill is a negative term for liberals (Like they think the SJWs are).
Doxxing is actually forbidden on KiA.
Speaking of which, I wonder if TumblrInAction still exists. It was KiA before KiA existed.

Are you aware of the term 'cognitive dissonance'? It's the mental discomfort one experiences when receiving new information that contradicts existing values or beliefs or facts. I read about that when I realized there really are gamergaters who think it's all about ethics, sometime last October.

Those Gaters make up the vast majority of actual gaters. You can dox in the name of GG all you like, but that doesn't make you part of the movement or it's community.
Strangely, just like in 40K, one of the Chaos gods (Khorne, God of War) gets pissed off if you kill innocent civilians shouting "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE.".
Lot of parallels to 40K in the GG controversy.
I am aware of the term (Thank you Spec Ops!), you're probably feeling it now.
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